From the hearth: At the end of April, the LPGA Tour visited Austin for what's now called the Kathy Ireland Championship Honoring Harvey Penick (the "Kathy and Harvey" for short.) It's been years since Betsy Rawls, a University of Texas Alumna, has been back in Austin, but the occasion seemed an appropriate time to survey the landscape. A sterling student (Phi Beta Kappa), player (55 wins, a Hall of Famer), Betsy has for many years capably administered the LPGA Championship. The conversation naturally drifted to her mentor who, she recalls, "taught the whole person and the whole game."

The Hearthstone Review: The LPGA Tour has changed so much: bigger fields, greater purses, greater notoriety, it doesn't bear much resemblance to the tour you joined in 1951 does it?

Betsy Rawls: Goodness no. I never could have predicted the success. It's just incredible to me. Of course, I saw it from the very beginning. If we played for a $100,000 in a year that was huge.

THR: You traveled together and at one time you even ran the tour yourselves.

Betsy Rawls: That's right. We couldn't afford to hire anybody and we were much closer to each other. It was more like a family in the early days and everybody did her part, and it did bring us closer together. And I must say we did a very good job because the LPGA survived and grew slowly over the years and look at it now. It's just a highly, highly successful organization.

THR: When you look at the women on the tour now, do they look familiar to you at all?

Betsy Rawls: Well, I get to see them once a year at the McDonald's LPGA Championship, which I run, but I don't know them as well as I used to, of course, but they're so impressive. I'll tell you that there are more good players out there now and every year I'm impressed by the swings, the distances that they hit the ball, the maturity of the players. They're just spectacular to watch now.

I just cannot believe how far they hit the ball. And these young players that are coming up, they just get better all the time. We also run the girls national championship for the AJGA, so I see them from an early age - age 14 on - I tell you, I just can't believe these kids who can go out there and hit it 280 yards.

THR: Do you think something's been lost? The camaraderie is certainly not anything like it existed among the core group of you. There weren't a whole lot of you.

Betsy Rawls: Exactly right. We played with each other week after week. Because of the numbers now there cannot be that closeness. I've heard of some players on the tour comment that they didn't even know some of the players out there because they hadn't been paired with them all year. So it is certainly a different social situation but it's a natural one.

Not that they don't want to be close. The circumstances don't allow it now.

THR: There's been a lot of talk about streaks, with Annika and Tiger. You won 10 tournaments in one year. When you're going through a run like that, is everything generally wonderful? Are there difficulties just under the surface? Are you grinding or just rolling with it and everything's grand?

Betsy Rawls: Back when I did that, it got easier as it went along, I think.

When you start out well in a year and win a couple of tournaments, some of the pressure is off. You're not as afraid. You don't put as much pressure on yourself.

I think it's a little easier. These days, there's so much publicity about it, which we did not have back then, that it does put more pressure on a player. And when she's trying to set a specific record, like Annika, the pressure comes right back. But the better you play, the easier it gets.

THR: Actually, Annika said very much the same thing, that she felt very comfortable, didn't mind talking about it. But I think the media had a little difficulty understanding how that could be.

Betsy Rawls: Yea. That's because you don't live and die with every shot. If after you've won a few tournaments in a year you think, 'I've won. I've established my position and if I don't make this three-footer, it's not the end of the world.' But if you've gone a year or two without winning, if you've had a bad streak, then every putt becomes life and death and of course that makes it harder to make those putts; so success sort of feeds upon itself.

THR: You were a college freshman when you came to Austin and met Harvey Penick. Your first lesson was…$3. You got a lot of mileage out of that first three-dollar lesson, didn't you?

Betsy Rawls: (laughs) That's right. That first three-dollar lesson lasted 25 years. It was a wonderful experience for me. I just consider myself so lucky that I even knew Harvey. To have worked with him for 25 years was such a blessing in my life.

THR: Why do you think, of all those great women players that he worked with, what's the common denominator? You had a lot of different personalities. Why do you think he resonated so well with all of you?

Betsy Rawls: You're right, Jim. Everyone was so different and every golf swing was so different. Harvey knew how to work with the individual. He wasn't a cookie cutter teacher by any means. He didn't try to make all of us swing the same way. He would work individually and work with our innate tendencies. So he was able to get the most out of each player as far as the swing and hitting the golf ball. And, then, Harvey built confidence so. He was an amazing man. He gave so much emotional support. He gave each player a lot of confidence, and he gave each player a very healthy perspective on the game.

If I would go back there from the tour for a couple of weeks to work with Harvey, usually I'd go back hitting the ball better, swinging a little better. But what made such a difference with me was my attitude towards golf. I would be much more relaxed, much more confident, and have a healthier perspective. I would realize what golf really was. To Harvey golf was a game of getting the ball into the cup in the fewest number of strokes. It wasn't how many greens you hit, or how long you hit the drives. He made golf more of an art to us, and therefore more enjoyable. He put emphasis on imagination and creativity in golf shots. A lot of things that a lot of teachers don't teach. You got it all from Harvey. He taught the whole person and the whole game.

THR: You had a special interest, even as a girl in science and math and physics, Phi Beta Kappa here at Texas. One would think that someone with such a technical bent might want a very technical style of golf instruction. Of course there are plenty of people who could provide that.

Betsy Rawls: That's right. I was lucky that I found Harvey who did not teach that way because I think I would've been bogged down with technicalities and the science of it. But Harvey did put everything back into perspective and taught me what the game really was. And I think that's the reason that I was really able to win a lot of tournaments even when I was not hitting the ball particularly well. You're right but he was the ideal teacher for me.

THR: Betsy, another long range perspective question, if you don't mind. How do you look at the debate about technology? You mentioned the prodigious distances people are hitting the ball. Do you really think the game is being threatened?

Betsy Rawls: Yes, somewhat. As you watch the men's professional tournaments, I do, I come away with the opinion that the courses are too short for those guys. The distances that they hit it now is taking away something from the game.

I'd much prefer to see the men hit a 2-iron or 3-iron to a well-bunkered green like Hogan used to do than watching Tiger Woods hit a wedge to every green.

I just think it takes something away from the necessary skill to win a golf tournament. I don't think it affects the average player as much. I don't think it's certainly as big a deal but I would like to see a limit put - somehow - on the distances players can hit the ball.

THR: When you were winning U.S. Opens, and playing on the tour, you were playing much longer courses than they play now, right?

Betsy Rawls: Yes we did. We played longer courses in the earlier years. We hit the ball shorter distances so we hit 3-woods to greens a lot, 2-irons, 3-irons. I think it took more skill back then to have a good round. I kind of liked that. I can remember Patty Berg hitting 3-woods to greens time after time and never missing a green. Mickey Wright hitting 2-irons with long carries to greens and I liked that part of the game.

But it was a tougher game back then, definitely was.

And of course the conditions were not as good. The greens were not as smooth, the fairways were not as complete. You play the courses the way you find them, if you're a pro, but you don't really have to be quite as skillful in all aspects of the game now as you did back then.

THR: There's a quote, I can't remember which of Harvey's books it's from, but it's from your close friend Mickey Wright and I wanted to ask if you might tell us what she meant by it. She told Bud Shrake, "It takes a lot of maturity to play the way Harvey wanted me to play." What do you think she meant?

Betsy Rawls: Well, you know, I would think…When Mickey came on tour she thought the game was hitting fairways and hitting greens and she almost totally ignored the short game. She had disdain for anybody who shot a 68 who hit 8 greens and I think when she went to Harvey, Harvey gave her a different perspective. He wanted her to appreciate the short game and to realize that people who made a lot of putts were not just lucky, they were good. And I remember his telling Mickey that it took more skill to putt well than to hit a 250-yard drive.

I think that's what she meant by maturity, by realizing what the short game was and by respecting people who had a good short game. And once she did that, she started winning almost every tournament. Once she became a good putter, a good chipper and wedge player, which she then practiced a lot, then she was almost unbeatable.

THR: I guess there's nobody around who reminds you of Babe Zaharias, is there?

Betsy Rawls: There's nobody like Babe. I don't think there ever will be. She was definitely one of a kind.

THR: You can't really underscore her importance to the LPGA, particularly early on, even if golf wasn't her best sport.

Betsy Rawls: Exactly right. I think she made the LPGA survive those early years. I don't think it could've started in 1950 when it did without Babe. Because she was a star. As you know, sports needs stars and she was the only one we had with a national reputation because, of course, of her exploits in the Olympics and track and field, basketball, baseball, all those things she competed in.

She was the reason it started and the reason it survived. She was so colorful. People just loved her. She brought people out to tournaments. She entertained them well. She was a funny, funny person. It's just too bad she didn't live longer. There's no telling how many tournaments she would've won. She was so talented. Greatest athlete of the century but we won't see her like again, I tell ya.

THR: Did Harvey tell you to clip the grass and clip the tee?

Betsy Rawls: Oh yes. Clip the tee. Harvey had a lot of those little sayings like that, that we all know and laugh about to this day.

THR: He made the point that he learned as much from you as you did taking lessons from him.

I recall the story - you can amend this, if it's not right - of the time when during a lesson he wanted to add something extra and you stopped him. He realized later that if someone with your intelligence couldn't handle two things, then maybe he'd better adjust his thinking with his less accomplished students. Is that the way you remember it?

Betsy Rawls: Yea, that's a true story but as far as his learning as much from me, that's not a true fact, I don't think. I learned so much from Harvey about life and golf and people. He was such a wise man and knew people so well, knew just how to treat them. Harvey would've been a genius at anything that he had attempted, not just golf. He would've been a genius at any profession.

THR: You were involved in many memorable events. Two I'd like to ask you about. You were a part of a great, great team of women golfers who went over and beat the British Walker Cup team. That must've been fun.

Betsy Rawls: That was fun. That was just great. Babe was on that team, Patty Berg, Betty Jameson, I was on it, Betty Bush, Peggy Kirk Bell. We played against the team at Wentworth and played the same tees that they did. Doubles matches in the morning and singles in the afternoon. We were down like four points to two after the morning rounds. Then, in the afternoon, the women won every singles match. The men were absolutely devastated. They were absolutely crushed. And it came out headlines in the London Times. I can tell ya the men golfers were hanging their heads in England for awhile.

THR: Another one. The 1957 Open at Wing Foot is recalled for what happened with Jackie Pung. She signed for a 72 on Sunday, which was the correct score, but she had the wrong number on a hole. Do you remember all that transpired?

Betsy Rawls: Oh sure. She signed for an incorrect score. She signed for a four on a hole when she had a five. And that was one of the rules of golf and still is. A number of people have been disqualified for that very same infraction. But, it was, Jackie was devastated. It was a terrible moment in her life and it wasn't the greatest moment in mine, of course. I was just glad I happened to be one stroke back, in second place. What can you say about it? It's part of the game and people know the rules and people lose tournaments right and left because of rules infractions, but that was a very unfortunate one.

THR: You're still involved with the game, when you look around, does it look like it's a better game to you? Are you happy with the way things went down for you?

Betsy Rawls: The good thing about golf is that it doesn't change much. Now, everything around it changes: the staging of it, the money, the numbers of players, the interest in it, the size of the galleries, all of that. It's just a different game. But, golf has not changed much over the last hundred years in fact. It's still the wonderful game that it's always been. People, golfers, are still pretty much the same. They live and die with those three-foot putts. Their hope, their self-esteem depends on how they play a round of golf. Golf is still the greatest game in the world. It hasn't changed much, thank heaven. So anybody who played in any era is really lucky and I don't think it's going to change. I think the game's strong enough to withstand everything, all the pressures that are on it today. So thank heaven we have it. I think it's one of the greatest things that ever happened to this ole world.

© THR, 2001

Talking Points - Edition I - Ron Green
Talking Points - Edition II - Dr. Patrick Cohn
Talking Points - Edition III - Bradley S. Klein
Talking Points - Edition IV - Doug Sanders
Talking Points - Edition V - Curt Sampson
Talking Points - Edition VI - Geoff Shackelford
Talking Points - Edition VII - Bryan Gathright
Talking Points - Edition VIII - Tim Rosaforte, Ray March and Gary Player
Talking Points - Edition IX - Dave Pelz
Talking Points - Edition X - Don Wade
Talking Points - Edition XI - Sidney Matthew
Talking Points - Edition XII - Bud Shrake